Cultivating Excellence in Supporting Roles

0:07 There are some people that make their work just another thing they have to do, and there are those that make their work something that they want to do. Welcome to Working on Purpose with your host Elise Cortez. In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration from those people who have found deeper meaning and personal connection to their work life. It's beyond nine to five. It's working on Purpose. Now Here is your host, Alise Cortez. Welcome back to Working on Purpose show. Thanks for tuning in again this week. I'm your host, Alise Cortez, joining you from Dallas, Texas, which is home base for me. This program is all about helping people more meaningfully and productively connect with their work and equipping organizations do the same for their employees. And it was originally inspired by the meaning and work research I've been doing over the last fifteen years and draws from that along with the consulting work that I did in seni In, which is a global management consulting for I'll get to the program in just a second, but let me thank my media partner and sponsor, jobbing dot com. They are the leading locally focused job board in the nation and they're dedicated to helping employers find quality talent in their own backyard while giving job secers control over their search. Thanks jobbing dot Com. Last week, if you weren't with us, we were on the air with Brett Randall, who is the CEO of Soulman's Barbecue, which is the beloved North Texas based restaurant chain. Here we talked about his unlikely entrance into the restaurant business, his journey to develop his culinary and leadership talents, and how he and his team purposely and daily operate from their carefully crafted culture to focus on service as inspired by their own individual faith. Some of the things that stood out

1:40 were Brett's ability to infuse his business with his own values through faith and create a culture that really lets him live his purpose of the work that he does in his leadership that he exercises across his two or twenty five employees. It was actually, might I just say at dinnertime a delicious conversation? No, sorry, I couldn't resist. With us this week is doctor Norman Baldwin, who is a professor of political science at the University of Alabama, where he has served as Director of Graduate Programs, Undergraduate Programs, and the Master of Public Administration program. He is the author of Winning at Following Secrets to Success, and Supporting Roles. He joined today from Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Doctor Baldwin, Welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here with you. I have been looking forward to this conversation. I told you when we first spoke that I haven't had this topic on the air.

2:30 It's a really important topic to talk about in the world of business today. So to get us right into the content here before we get into what I want to get to in your book and your Arab expertise, you know, I got to ask, as I'm a meeting and work researcher, why did you pursue a career in education. Well, in all seriousness, I had a couple of jobs that paid well that I was bored in them. My father was a professor, and I took a look at his job and thought, you know, he does some interesting things, and as a consequence, I kind of followed in his footsteps. He was actually a microbiologist, and I was not good with my hands in the laboratory, so I had to do a different side of campus to pursue the social sciences and political science in particular. Okay, So I love the fact that you know what you even just said, you actually left well paying, perfectly well paying jobs to this kind of work. I think that is just fantastic. And since I do, in fact I speak on this topic the importance of being able to work from whatever, whatever gets you up in the morning and gives you a sense of purpose, I just really applaud that I didn't ask you that before, So I'm glad I ask you this time. Okay, So the content, doctor Baldwin, You know, I think it's really interesting when you talk about the work that you've been doing around your research, and the first thing that you say is leaders get all the glory. Why do you suppose that is well, I think it's easier to understand that leaders are allowing organizations to perform

4:03 at high levels or attributed to success as an organization, and we have this real romance with leadership, and it's much easier to understand that there's some great leader that brought about an outstanding out guns into understand something like the complex system of multi level networks and a myriad of variables in the internal and external organization. So it's just simpler. But we have to remember that even though leaders get all the glory, they also get all the blame, and so it cuts both ways with the leaders. That is so true. And you know, after we first spoke about this and I knew you were going to come on the show, I really began paying more attention to the work that we do as an asment consultant, because we do do a lot of work with leaders, but of course the only way that work gets done is through the people who support up into to execute their mission. So I just really felt like this is such an important topic that doesn't get discussed enough. I've said.

5:00 The other thing that strikes me about leadership is we tend to remember extreme behavior, extreme good behavior, and extreme bad behavior, and so we're always reading about these incredibly successful coaches, for example, like Nick Sayman at the University of Alabama. And of course there are the people in the private sector that are so outstanding, like Bill Gates that you know, so many leaders, I mean, they're just there are millions of leaders out there that are in between the extremes, are really bad and really outstanding that we really never hear about. So yeah, it's the few, really outstanding leaders that get all the glory, and then there's kind of the middle that doesn't get as much attention, or they probably do get more attention and get more attributed to their behavior than at least what we would ascribe to them as people who are into followership, and what subordinates really bring to the organization depend BLI right, So I'm really really interested in and I generally almost ask all of my authors who will come on my show this question about why they wrote the book.

6:09 Your book is beautiful. I'm looking at it right here. You've created a beautiful cover jacket and the contents are quite compelling. But I know how much work it takes to write a book, So why did you write it? Well? My father was an interesting character. I always thought that he should be a dean or a university vice president or a university president, and he just never had any interest. He was extremely well rounded, dealt with people beautifully, had great values, well read to relate to all sorts of people. But he had noticedire whatsoever to climb a hierarchy in the university system. Then, in my experiences as in a leadership role in the university system, that was much more stressful than I thought i'd ever be. I was the president of the Faculty Senate at the University Alabama, and as a consequence, I was accountable to one thousand, one hundred faculty members. I'd had to lead a fifty member faculty Senate and a seventy member steering committee, and I tell you it was just a lot of pressure. It seemed like all I did all day long was screen email. I was kind of a clearing house.

7:20 I'd tend people to places where they should have started instead of starting with me. And all I did was field complaints all day long. And it wasn't until the end of the work day when the email quit coming in and I could really get anything done. It had anything of substitute significance in the sense of new policies and programs, And it was just a much more difficult job than I ever anticipated, and I thought, you know what, I don't think I'm going to stick around to do this much longer. So I did one term and was gone, and my wife was actually quite pleased that it was over with. I was a bit crabby that year that I've led the faculty Senate. There's also you know, you read academically and you find people that are kind of kindred spirits. And there's a small group of us that are academics that are really into this topic. And the other thing is kind of interesting. I do simply I make casual observations and ask questions, like to my students, and here I am teaching classes and how to lead, manage, and organize people for public service. And I asked my students, well, how many of you want to be leaders? And when the hands go up, let's say you have a class forty five students, there maybe a half dozen people that want to be leaders. Yet the entire courses, or much of the course is focused on how to lead people of a disconnect. Yes, yeah, And I realized that I'm really kind of missing the boat in terms of what these kids need, and especially knowing that they're

8:52 going out into a work environment and they're going to be the lowest followers on the TOTEM poll, that they really needed some skill and how to become a great follower. And I know I want to I want to get into that into the after the break here because I want to get really really up close in person with that information. But first I want to help our listeners understand that your book is based on research, So how did you do the research and what's the general gist of what you found. Well, the research is just a matter of digging deep into what's already out there. And I just gathered as many quanti quantitative studies as possible and found as many qualitative studies as possible on what the ideal traits of followers were. But then basically I thought, you know, it's not enough to know what the ideal traits of followers are, what brings followers job satisfaction, what brings them dissatisfaction, What are the best jobs and the worst jobs for followers? So it's just a matter of lots and lots of library work going, you know, just hundreds and hundreds of articles together summarizing that information. So I've done a lot of quantitative research myself, but this is just a matter of pulling together a body of research that nobody else has really pulled together quiet the way I have. I won't say much about this, but I just want to chime in because I've really approached my research from a qualitative advantage point to discover how people connect with

10:24 work, and I didn't separate it according to individual contributors or followers like you're talking about. But certainly can see that there are certain things, like you know, cognitive challenge that's really important for some relationship and social connection to others, and these are not at all related to leadership. It's related to the actual what they're actually doing on a day to day basis. And so I'm sure we could talk adnasm about this, but just fascinating kind of looked at it differently about this stuff. So you're visiting with the right guy. I like it. I like my company, like my company. Well, one of the other things that we talked about, as you as most of my listeners probably know, is I'd like to have a preliminary conversation with my guests before we get on the air, so we can chat about what it is that you really want to talk about in relation to my topic. And you said something interesting that I want to bring up for our listeners. You said, it's not enough just to please the boss when it comes down to followership and individual contribution. Why not. Well, basically, if you can please the boss and be totally miserable, you can hate the boss. You can hate your co workers, you can hate the nature of your work. You can hate the nature of the culture and climate the organization. So you know, what are you really getting out of pleasing the boss if you're miserable.

11:41 So really, almost two thirds of the books that I've written is about how to become a satisfied follower, how to avoid our dissatisfying aspects of organizations that we know from research, and it's also about essentially jobs that followers will really like based on the research. And in addition, the book also talks about how to deal with common problems that followers experience, such as bowling bosses and sexual harassers and micromanagers, etc. So yeah, as an academic, for whatever reason to me, I'm part of a kind of a cadre of organization theorists that believes that work should be self fulfilling, should allows to self actualize, should be meaningful, and so it's not all about cracking the whip all the time. So we're the most productive organization in the region or state or whatever, but essentially not only were productive organization, but we're an organization where people really love going to work because they love their jobs, they love the climate, they love their bosses and colleagues, well again, kindred spirits here, doctor Ballin. I really believe in the importance of finding fulfilling work too, and also so pretty much believe that work can be very much a way to self actualize. And of course I've learned that's not true for everybody wants that, but it can be that, and I could not agree more.

13:11 Trying to find a place where you can actually be who you are and feel fulfilled by that and happy about your contribution is huge, huge, whether you're a leader or not. Yeah, there's some interesting research that exists. It came out of MIT that basically shows that you can give people jobs outside of their work to civic organizations all and they will work much harder than they'll actually work on their real job when they're doing something that is meaningful that makes a difference, no question, get no pay whatsoever, and yet just work their heart out for a worthy cause and meaningful work. Oh. I have contributed countless hours of my life, years of my life doing community service leadership roles and for no pay. Completely get that. Yeah, And you say it doesn't make much sense because we so oftentimes been misled by thinking that people were motivated by money. And I've spent an entire career trying to give in students that people aren't just motivated by money, that they're motivated by intrinsically satisfying work.

14:22 And one of the sayings I use in classes, what you want to do is what make work as much like play as possible. That doesn't mean you don't hold the people accountable for getting the job done, but you let them do it in a way where they'll have fun and through enjoyment and delight and can find meaning in the word you know what, doctor ball went. Just last night, I was speaking to a group of women about leadership development, and I asked them something about where what do you find how do you find value or meaning in your work? And a bunch of things, what up? What does it mean to be fulfilled? And they think something passion and impact, contribution and connection, all these kinds of things. And not once did anybody in that room of about eighty five people say money. Yeah, not once when no one is actually interesting. After spending like three quarters of semester teaching students that money is not everything, what you actually the research actually shows is that you can reintroduce money and it doesn't hurt intrinsic motivation, and that actually added on to meaningful work and social recognition and feedback and all money helps, but we shouldn't be looking at it as the primary motivator.

15:37 And what's very interesting about the research is that when people throw money at progressively more cognitive difficult tasks, people perform words. I've seen that same form doing that same style and money at and to do simple tasks. They perform words when you're throwing money out them to perform complex tasks. I think that's incredible. Fast fond it is. And on that note, doctor Baldwin, it's already. It's already time for our first break. It goes so fast. I'm Alice Cortez, your host. We've been on the air with doctor Norman Baldwin, who is the professor of political science at the University of Alabama. He's the author of Winning at Following Secrets to Success, and Supporting Roles.

16:19 He joins us to Day from Tuscaloosa, Alabama. We've been talking a bit about what he's been researching around followership and why. After the break, we're going to get into the nitty gritty details of some of the qualities that employers are seeking when looking for followers and how to cultivate that in them. Stay with us Friend us on Facebook to keep up with what's empowering the world. Voice America Empowerment. Alice Cortez is a speaker and engagement and development catalyst.

17:00 She designs and delivers professional development, leadership and engagement workshops and can bring her expertise to your organization. She will help ignite meaningful development within your workforce that will increase employee engagement, performance and retention. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at www dot Elise Cortez dot com. She would welcome the opportunity to help get your employees working on purpose. Have you friended us on Facebook yet? Why not? Just go to Facebook dot com, forward slash Voice America or search for the keywords Voice America. Once you are part of our Facebook network, you'll receive daily messages about what's happening with our shows, this week's feature guests, and new happenings at the Voice America Talk radio network, and you can add your voice to the always active discussions on our wall. Just go to Facebook dot com, Forward slash Voice America or search for Voice America. It's your world.

17:56 Motivate, change, succeed Voice America Empowerment dot com. This is Working on Purpose with Elise Cortez. To reach our program today, please call in to one triple eight three four six nine one four one. Again that's one triple eight three four six nine one four one. You may also send an email to Elise A. L I s E at Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to Working on Purpose. Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working on Purpose if you're just joining us. My guest is doctor Norman Baldwin, who is Professor of Political Science at the University of Alabama, where he has served as director of Graduate Programs, Undergraduate Programs, and the Master Public Administration Program. He's the author of Winning at Following Secrets to Success and Supporting Roles. I'm your host, Elise Cortez. Okay, So getting us right into the content of the follower piece. What I want to start with here for the segment, if we can, doctor Baldwin, for those people out there who are maybe thinking of themselves, but maybe I should be there.

19:07 I'm supposed to strive to be a leader. Isn't that where everybody's supposed to get to in their career. What are the advantages of pursuing your career without being a leader. Well, I think the main thing is is it gosh, so many low level jobs, even though the parallel level are really the most meaningful. It's just like would you rather be on the air or be running the radio station? And that would I rather be running the university or being in the class one I like to deal with classroom students. My father was a microbiologist who wanted to be in the lab. He didn't want to be a dean or department chair, and I think he can go through every occupation. A physician wants to be working with patients day doesn't want to be or she doesn't want to be running a hospital. It's just much more meaningful, oftentimes working directly with clients. So the other thing is that I'd laugh about is that then you are a follower, you don't have all the ugly responsibilities that a leader has, in particular having to give people essentially bad performance evaluations are good ones that aren't good enough from the perspective of your employees, having to give people assignments they don't want, denying them pay raises, denying them promotions, having the fire people. You don't have to deal with any of that when you're not a leader. And the truth of the matter is, you can actually be an informal leader have a lot of power because you are in fact an expert and exercise good judgment and know how to work well with people. You can be the informal leader and be calling all the

20:38 shots and avoiding all those ugly responsibilities of leadership. You are reminding me, doctor Baldwin. Over the years, I've done a lot of leadership development work with executives and directors and managers, etc. And I remember so distinctly I was doing at the time. I was doing a strength Finder workshop developing culture and leadership in a technical team, and we were talking about, you know, the stuff that really juices you up at lightshop, you know, what is it that really brings you alive? And I saw him sit in the back of the room and I saw his eyes kind of get kind of big, and I said to it, I didn't. I called his name out and said, hey, what's going on for you? I can see it in your face. What's happening? He said, Oh, my gosh, I've really made the realization that I've been spending all these years cultivating my leadership career and I don't want to do that. What I love it's the tropical stuff, right. I want to be there. I want to be the nitty gritty of the of the data and the architecture. That's what turns me on. And I said, I'm happy and for you that you've discovered that for yourself, you know, But to your point, right, to your point, absolutely, yeah. Well, it's interesting. My nephew coaches with the Dallas Cowboys. He's a receiver coach and he is a leader in that sense over the receivers. That he was a former head coach and he enjoyed being a head coach. That when I'm they've interviewed him and asked him about his responsibilities. Oh my god, when you're a head coach with a major Division one team, all the people that are barking at you all the time

22:11 and all the scrutiny that you have from the contemporary media makes a job just unbelievably demanding. And you know, some people do really well as a head coach or a CEO, having very diverse interest and liking to work day and night and not worrying about what's happening on social media and other people just don't have that diverse set of interests and don't respond as well to the diverse types of pressures that leaders have. Well, another thing that was quite interesting to me, kind of it's related to this conversation tangentially that I thought was interesting and certainly wanted to share with our listeners is he started to talk about how society seems to ussure people away from certain jobs that and I know you've got a perspective about about why this happens and kind of the effect that it has on people. So what kind of jobs are seeing as desirable and what aren't.

23:03 Well, it's it's interesting to pull the research together. I had no idea, for example, that certain jobs like an actuary and a dental hygienist and a pharmacist are really very good jobs for people in the sense that the work is interesting, that pays well, the hours are good, you don't have to travel. And the thing that's also fascinating is that to me, the very top rated jobs all tend to be moderately technical, and again, these are jobs that pay well, that are interesting work that have decent hours, etc. And engineering jobs, for example, are consistently rank extremely high.

23:45 Jobs as financial advisors and financial planners are basically rated highly as our jobs as computer systems analysts. And what's interesting is that these are historically kind of male dominant jobs, and it's unfortunate that historically women have not been socialized to go into these different occupations that are technical in nature. And I think it's just one of the great things about the book is to reveal or what these leading jobs are and hopefully that there is a women are reading the book and realizing that maybe how to take a look at being an engineer. And after doing the research, I can tell you that I never thought of being an engineer. I never thought of being a financial planner. And I wish I would have taken a course or two to expose me to these areas that turn out to be terrific jobs that on the surface I didn't think it'd be that great. And of course I would never think of being an actuary. But yeah, I'm curious now even though we've already had a career. Well, I have a fourteen year old daughter, so I am keenly, keenly interested in ensuring that she gets the full breadth of possibility presented to her as options, and that isn't segregated and sorted by gender, tradition, etc. So I'm I completely opt into what you're talking about too. Let's just look at all the options and see where things land. And I do do a lot of work with women's leadership groups, many of which are technical, and they are you know, they're kind of their own camp, their own breed.

25:17 Now, well, I hope this book. I hope the book is essentially read by women. The first people that I got to endorse the book were the first female president of the University of Alabama and the first and only female Chief Justice of the Alabama Spring Court. And you know, you can kind of get a quick look over the book, and you know, if we people turn to the back and say, aha, maybe women will appreciate and I certainly keep you my fingers crossed that way. But the other thing I want to share with you is there's some jobs that on the surface are very sexy that actually, when you get right down to it, are not that great at jobs for followers. And that is jobs, for example, as a police officer, as a broadcaster, as a newspaper reporter. These are all jobs that don't pay well, that oftentimes cause you to work very difficult hours and something like a police officer needs to say it is a very dangerous job. And even broadcasting what you're into, that's a if you're doing that as a career, that is a It can be a very demanding job.

26:23 And typically broadcasters essentially develop their own news and small markets that don't pay well. They're working evening shifts, in late night shifts and weekends, and there's always somebody that's wanting their job that they have to compete against. So but we think of these jobs, especially when we watch jobs about people and policing organizations that all they're all exciting on television, but again they're dangerous, they work bad hours, and they don't pay that well. Yeah, yeah, well, and I think that's a really important thing to call out for listeners. I Mean, one of the things that I really enjoy is encouraging people to if they're not happy doing what they're doing, go look for another way to make it to make a living. There's you're gonna you could probably be working well into your sixties and seventies today because of how longer lifespans are so if you're miserable in something, there's so many other options. Absolutely well, and it's just interesting. We are kind of seduced and there is probably some sexual socialization that's still going on that allows us to, I think, not reach our optimal happiness and contentment at work. M What do you mean by that's? Well? And I think that now we still have professions that are predominantly dominantly male or female. And I think that when there's more gender integration and people are finding their true passion, then uh, you know, people are just happier. And that that means that you know, mena sensive becoming

27:59 registered nurses and nurse practitioners, and more women going into into the STEM field science, technology, engineering, et cetera. I got it now, Yes, completely agree with that. Yes, I am really interested in the notion of androgyny. The idea for me and how I look at that is, you know, what can women learn from men or how can they become or associate or enjoy what are seen as more traditionally characteristic attributes of men and vice versa men of women, Because I think everybody wins when when when you can do that in a way that it celebrates that permits that I think it's it's a good thing for all of us. Yeah. Well, the research on women and management, organizations and leadership is just fascinating. Absolutely, the debates there are so intriguing that that would probably be another good radio show. I think we should talk in at least a year. Women in management and leadership is just fascinating, and women are out showing men oftentimes. There's some really good meta analyses, big review articles that summarize all the research that show how terrific women are in leadership roles. Yeah, I can be a little bit off topic. I'm going to seck your way in on that. We're going to go down a rabbit hole. But I'd love to talk more about that as well. But since we are talking about individual contributors and followership, and you sort of mentioned that you've got a whole chapter in the book about this, for the sake of our listeners who might be dealing with this, how

29:29 can people deal more effectively with a boring boss or a micromanager? Well, the micromanager is the one I'd like to talk to mainly about. It's interesting people have this sense that if you just go to the boss and you have a heart heart conversation about being micromanaged that you know that you'll connect in the micromanager boss will back off, and that's just not true. When you go and complain to the boss, even civilly and diplomatically, it just makes the micromanager want a micromanage even more so. But anyway, you know, I think that one of the key things you need to do in dealing with micromanagers is just like a good parent who anticipates the needs of their children, you anticipate the needs of your boss and you become an early person. You meet those needs before they're they're actually articulated to you. And uh, you know, I think we're all have tendencies to be late on time or early people, and it's a matter of people that are on time or late becoming early people so that the boss isn't bothering you all the time. But basically, you overcome problems with micromanagers when you behave consistently perform consistently up to their standards.

30:42 So you can't turn in good work one day and then sloppy work the next that you when you see the consistency, when the micromanagers sees the consistency, then they back off. But there are a lot of a lot of different things you can do. Find simple things is when your micromanager does back off, you show appreciation, You reinforce any kind of positive behavior, and yeah, and you don't fight your way to freedom. Sometimes you even have to develop an upfront agreement where you have a written understanding with the boss that you're going to check back together, check in every two weeks or once a month or whatever. In contrast to this everyday stuff that micromanagers can get caught up in, and I hate to say it, in dealing with all these problematic bosses that I write about, one of the things that I instruct with every one of them is when all else sales, it's important to move on, and that they're just we have natural followership styles that are sometimes just incompatible with the leadership style the micromanager or bowling boss, etc. So moving on is clearly always one of the options. You know. One of the things I just was thinking about as you were talking here, doctor Baldwin, is just today I was doing a coaching conversation with a leader that I'm working with him. We were talking about delegation and how hard that can be for it because she says, you know, I know how I like things, and I feel like it's just easier if I just go do something myself. And

32:14 I said, yeah, are you going to develop your skills? So you're going to have to learn how to delegate well and coach and teach people how to do the job that you want them to do, and then support them so they can bring up their skills. And probably in the process of doing that, you know, until you gain comfort, you're probably going to be a micromanager. And she said, yeah, I've been. I've been accused of that and anyway, so it's interesting when you start talking about this stuff and I start thinking about the work that I do on the other side with leaders, what's happening there. And I love what you're saying about how how followers can teach and encourage and reinforce the behaviors that they want in their leaders. That's gorgeous. They glab your way to freedom. I wasn't quite going there, but I like that too, Okay. I like that you have these unexpected pearls that come up from from from the conversation. One of the other things that you and I talked about on the phone briefly. When I was asking you about some of the things that you really like to talk about, you talked about exceptions to research, and when in talking about followership, I'm passing on essentially what most of the research is saying. But that doesn't mean that anyone individual is an exception. And I write in my book about how there's certain people that they are meant to be lawyers. I think for most people who go on for a lot of people, not most, a lot of people that go on to law school, they're really not meant to be lawyers. But there's some people who absolutely and equivocally should be a lawyer.

33:46 Same thing with newspaper reporters. Even though that is ranked dead last, is an attractive job. They're people that are ideally fit to be a newspaper reporter. So I always teach that in the absence of complete information, what's your best generalization? And so the book is full of the generalizations. But when you have complete information, you can break all the rules or go against what the empirical research says. Got it. That's so important, right, because what we would not want to do on this show, we would would not want to leave. Those listeners are like, but I do want to be a newspaper reporter, thinking that they shouldn't pursue that. So absolutely they need to pursue it. It's interesting when my nephew coaches with the Dallas Cowboys.

34:30 He basically got a nice by out as a head coach at the university and he didn't have to work another day of his life. However, he loves coaching and at the moment he could get another coaching job, he was. He was back in it. He was meant to be a coach, and even though it was a very, very hard job, it's perfect for him. I get that. It's a beautiful thing when people find the work that they really are supposed to be doing suited to do. It's so beautiful. Yeah, for everybody, for everybody, for them, and for everybody that they interact with, their families, their communities, the people they work with. Everybody wins right well. And it's interesting to ask students and people what motivates them. And the thing that's interesting they always think that something hard motivates. Somebody said, well, think about when you're doing something you really enjoy and you're put in all sorts of hours and going to bed late because you can't put something down. So that's how we want work to be.

35:29 Work as much like your play as possible. And I think, and I've taught this forever, is that so many of the problems of organizations are solved just by hiring the right person. And I don't know what the percentage would be, but I'd say eighty nine percent of problems are solved when you hire a person that is perfectly suited to the job. They love the job, They're going to work hard because the work is so intrinsically satisfying, exciting and stimulating and fun. I completely agree with that. I'm right on board. I could you and I are speak in the same language. It's a good thing. Yeah, we might have read the same book, yeah, and some of the same books to get to where we both are in terms of our research. But here we are already time for another break. I'm Alice Cortez, your host. We've BREU on the air with doctor Norman Baldwin, who was professor of political science at the University of Alabama. He's the author of Winning at Following Secrets to Success, and Supporting Roles. He joins us today from Tuscaloosa, Alabama. After the break, we're gonna get into the nitty gritty details of followers styles and qualities employers seek. Stay with us.

36:45 Friend us on Facebook to keep up with what's empowering the world. Voice America Empowerment. Alice Cortez is a speaker and engagement and development catalyst. She designs and delivers professional development, leader ship and engagement workshops and can bring her expertise to your organization. She will help ignite meaningful development within your workforce that will increase employee engagement, performance and retention. To learn more or to invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at www dot Elise Cortez dot com. She would welcome the opportunity to help get your employees working on purpose. We're making it easier to listen to the Voice America Talk radio Network wherever you go. In addition to listening live, you can check out information about your favorite talk show hosts, discover new talk show personalities and shows to your list of favorites, and listen to all our show archives on demand, all from your iPhone, BlackBerry or Android downloaded from the Apple App Store BlackBerry app World or Android Market and get ready to tune in the Voice America Mold Last powered by Aircast the Glow the Star like, bigacy and inspired, Encouraged and connected on our Lively Award winning healthy living power our Star Style Be the star you are with host and empowerment architect Cyndia Brien live every Wednesday at four pm

38:17 Pacific on the Voice America Empowerment Channel. Tune into The Power Party for positive, uplifting, life changing talk radio. Visit Star Style Radio dot com. You lage follow us on Twitter for more great ideas at Voice America Empowerment. This is Working on Purpose with Alice Cortez. To reach our program today, please call into one triple eight three four six nine one four one. Again that's one triple eight three four six nine one four one. You may also send an email to Elise ali Se at Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to Working on Purpose. Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working on Purpose if you're just tuning in. My guest is doctor Norman Baldwin, who was professor of political science at the University of Alabama, where he has served as Director of Graduate Programs undergraduate programs and the Master of Public Administration program. He is the author of Winning at Following Secrets to Success in supporting Roles. I'm your host, Elise Cortez. So for this last segment here if we can, doctor Baldwin, I really want to give our listeners some really good meat from your book. So first thing I want to get to is you talk about followers styles in your book. Fascinating. I didn't even

39:50 consider that. So how many are there and how would you briefly describe them? Well, there are five different dot comomies, and the economies are, for example, a conformist follower versus an individualistic follower, uh, an active follower versus a more passive follower. We've got followers that are also very pragmatic versus those that are kind of dreamers are less practical. And then we have followers that are essentially very self oriented versus altruistic. So I think I leave get all those. I guess they're yeah, that's about ten uh yeah, active followers and passive followers also, so and these are these are the followership styles that occur in the in the research and in the qualitative types of research.

40:42 Also so and and we're fairly self explanatory. And you know, I hate to say that they're alienated followers and passive followers, but they just are. But one thing I talk about is that certain followers that are passive are really not passive. That's symptomatic of some bad experience as an organization, and I think I kind of alienated follower. It may be totally symptomatic, but in the short run, there are people that are clearly followers that are alienated, not committed to the organization. So it strikes me as I'm listening to you talk about those, because I've got I've discovered fifteen modes of engagement in relation how people experience meaning in their work and how it relates to their sense of identity, and they're mutable. So it strikes me that these follower styles are probably also mutable, depending on the boss, the work environment, Yes, no, or do you I think you're onto something. I still think that the passivity and the alienated follower, that that's probably a symptom. That the question is have they been alienated and passive for such a long time that we can't do anything about it, We can't change them. But I would say things like being an active follower and committed following a pragmative and self ware in or autuistics. Some of those things are just part of our personalities and they're very difficult to change. Uh, they're givens. And we're probably smart in terms of thinking of those being givens up to a certain point. Yeah,

42:16 because I certainly know that in my research, I think there are tendencies for people to go to want to experience a certain mode of engagement. That's what they look for because of their of their personalities, their value sets, what they want from work, etc. But according to the environment they find themselves, and sometimes it does change. My big deal in writing this book is that, you know, I present the ideal qualities of the follower that we'll talk about shortly, and then I have a chapter on how to change to really aspire to and integrate these qualities into your behavior repertoire. But then I go on and say, hey, look at somebody just can't change.

42:58 And yeah, consequence, what we want to do is put you in organization cultures and climates and with leadership styles that are compatible with your natural followership style. Yeah, we're just trying to get the match right. Yeah, well, what are those five qualities that employees are looking for in great followers? What are these? Yeah? There are three actually that kind of separate out the top one. And these actually surprised me before I did the research. I wouldn't necessarily guess these. But the number one quality is effective communicator. And here we're talking about, you know, just people communicating in a way that's understandable, that's accurate, that's timely, and not excessive. And the bottom line is bosses and organizations are not wanting followers to be seen and not heard. That's far from the truth, because no superiors want suppordinates that are open, that speak up, their offer opinions, and are persuasive. And I also talk about followers who are effective communicators that speak up and shut up and listen. But the other the second leading quality is as active. People want active followers, not passive followers. They want followers that don't wait for directions. They're proactive, they're participators, are energetic, their initiators. And then the third leading quality is interpersonally skillful. And here we're just talking about bosses and management loving subordinates who are socially intelligent. Here we're talking about individuals

44:29 that are diplomatic or tactful, they're friendly, they interact, and they're skilled at building networks. So those are the three leading. The other two qualities actually I thought would have been high on the list that are part of the top five is being responsible and being a team player. And it was interesting that I thought I actually had responsible as the number two in my mind, but it actually comes in as fourth and team player as fifth, and then six. Actually, if you're looking at the top half dozen, we're talking about, interestingly enough, followers being flexible and adaptable. So okay, so I have never heard of these qualities before for followers, they make complete sense to me in the work that I've been doing over the years. How you did mention something about you've got a whole chapter devoted and obviously we don't have time to hear about the whole chapter, but how can followers at least start to cultivate some of these qualities? Well, you know, it's it's interesting.

45:31 The chapter is kind of about how you change habits. And first of all, there are all sorts of ways to get the technical information to know how to be essentially a more effective communicator, active and impersonally skillful. And there are junior colleges and universities and colleges that are close by where you can take courses, and if you can't get to them in terms of accessibility, you can take online courses. And now what you have for absolutely free from the best universities in the country or what are called these mookes massive online open courses that you can take for absolutely free. And I know when I was in graduate school, I took a course essentially in interpersonal dynamics. It really hits on this idea of being interpersonally skillful and it was life changing in terms of giving me skills. So I wasn't so obnoxious the way I communicated with people and interacted with people. But anyway, so always encouraged people basically to pursue the educational opportunities to become more effective communicator and interpersonally dynamic and less passive, et cetera. But then they're just kind of dynamics. Other dynamics such as you know, finding the triggers of bad habits that keep you from becoming the ideal follower and developing substitute behaviors. Once you find the triggers that go against, for example, the behavior that you're wanting to get rid of and

47:07 the new behavior wanting to develop. But there's a lot of things you do if you want to be interpersonally skillful and more active. You hang around with people that are interpersonally skillful and you learn from them. You hang around people that are proactive people and effective communicators, etc. But there are, you know, kind of a lot of a lot of different tricks to bring it about the change. And again, I really love the idea of starting with taking a course and learning these skills. That is great. I got to see two things what you said. They're really quick. First, I cannot imagine you being obnoxious. I just can't imagine that. It really hard to get my head around it. Well, that's good, then my course succeeded back in graduate school. Yeah, it's just impossible. And I've you know, I've worked. I've had the privilege of working with really fantastic leaders over the years who told me some similar things. I look at them today, I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. I can't imagine. So clearly, here's the good news for anybody listening, right, we can all learn, we can all change, We can work on these things. The other thing that really strikes me that you're talking about is just how important it is to be able to work at getting conscious of these kinds of behaviors and tendencies and us to reveal them to ourselves, because so much of how we live our life is very automated, right, We just have an automated response to things, and we don't think about how we can do something different, and so finding a way to get present to that is the start. Yeah, I agree with you, But again, there are some people that just can't change. And that's why one of the things to talk about in the

48:38 book is pursuing employment in organizations that are compatible with your personality. Yeah. Absolutely, you know, I talk a lot to my students here at Southern Methis University about opting into the right culture, the kind of job that is just going to let you be you. I mean, you're I do get you, and I kind of misspoke earlier. You're right. Not we can't all change, and we can change less as we get older. Oftentimes it seems like, so I guess I need to be careful about how I say that we can learn, But there are certain things that are that get really hard to change in us, right, absolutely. I got to ask this question here. I've never heard this before either. And you talk about this in your book too, the notion of havens and hades. What are you get not there? Well, I just have it a couple of chapters on the havens where you fit best and the havens where you don't fit. It's like, I would bet your natural followership style is to be active. Would that be correct? You're not a passive person, I'm afraid not, don't, okay, And for somebody like you who's an active follower, you, for example, would work very well and very under task going it leaders and task going a cultures and climates you'd probably love working on or a transformational leader, and all the leaders early democratic, very oriented towards allowing people to participate.

50:07 In turn. You know, you probably wouldn't work very well under an autocratic or an authoritative leader in culture. You probably don't work as well in bureaucratic cultures. Correct, So it's just a matter it's saying telling you to steer clear of bureaucracy and autocrat yes, and pursue those transformational leaders who have a democratic leadership style. Also, and are very task oriented. Yeah, that's where I do my best work. Well, we're coming really close to the end here, doctor Baldwin. I want to I want to get one more question in here that I want to make sure and ask for our listeners. So, what what can leaders do in today's workforce to more effectively support their followers? These are the people they count on to execute. Yeah, they need that. There's just such a wealth of information out there that can tell them how to satisfy their employees. And it's a matter of tapping into that. There are thousands and thousands of findings on what brings employees job satisfaction.

51:08 There are thousands and thousands of findings on why people turn over, why people are absent from work. Uh, you know, why people are unproductive and unmotivated, And it is so easy to access contemporarily and these there are basically these review articles that pull it all together, that tell you exactly what to do and what to avoid. And so it's just a matter of exposing yourself to this. Uh. You know, our leaders have to have a learning attitude and they have to be willing to do things that are different. But in general, I also point my finger to academia. Academia is in an area of management, public administration. Business administration is too oriented towards teaching people to be leaders. You don't see followership chapters. You don't see chapters very often on job satisfaction, dissatisfaction, etc. And so we in academia need to start including followership and writing about how you really satisfy your employees instead of telling leaders all the time how to lead, how to motivate, how to communicate effectively. All those things are good, but there just needs to be academically a little stronger focus on followership. I completely agree. When you just look at the numbers, you can see there's a lot more followers than there are leaders. So underserved population. I think, well, here we are at the end. Really quick. I want to thank you doctor Baldwin for coming and joining us. Thank you so much for lending your passion, your perspective. Well, thank you, it's been very enjoyable. And tell

52:39 us if you can quickly for our listeners, how can they contact you? How can they find you online? Okay, I'm at. I've got a website that's involved when dot people, dot UA, dot edu perfect, and that also at that site you can connect to information about the book great and also my email addresses in Baldwin at UA dot du perfect. Thank you, doctor Baldwin. All right, here we are at the end of the hour, so join us next week when we talk with Jared Grossman, who is the co founder of Muscle Prodigy and a sought after performance consultant. We'll be talking about the mindset he teaches clients to perform with their best in business and in life, His take on motivation at work, and how to achieve fulfillment in life and work using his eight part process. See you then, remember that work is at least one third of our life, So let's work on purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host Alice Cortez every Wednesday at six pm Eastern time freepm Pacific Time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel. This week, find your life's purpose at work. We were